I am so wiped out and I cannot get my mind to shut up. I had this conversation in a chat room with my friend Sabrina (1, 2, 3) and a guy who I'll call Rocky. He claimed he was 56 and had been through seminar some 35-40 years ago. We were in a Christian chat room called Bible Discussions and he was throwing questions at us about all the contradictions in the Bible. He was actually talking to Sabrina in IM first, and she told me about him, and we took our 3-way conversation to the empty Bible Discussions chat room.

Anyway, long story short, he was one of those oh-so-knowledgable guys who just wants to mess with people by throwing all his scholarly knowledge at us, without giving straight answers to any questions we ask. (How does that Sting song go? "When their eloquence escapes you/Their logic ties you up and rapes you/De do do do/De da da da/Is all I want to say to you/De do do do/De da da da/They're meaningless and all that's true.") I figured this out immediately. Sabrina is still young enough that she doesn't know about these kinds of guys--or if she does, she doesn't know how to deal with them. Her method was to repeat exactly what she's always been taught all her life--those pat Sunday school answers that drive me up a WALL, me and anyone else who has learned critical thinking skills. I more or less ignored her, which would hurt her feelings if she knew that was what I was doing, but seriously, there's a point in a situation like that when you just have to GIVE UP trying to talk to the person. You can't MAKE people think critically. It's a physical maturity thing. The brain can only do that at a certain point in a person's life.

I'm really tired, so if I ramble and repeat myself really needlessly, I'm sorry.

ANYWAY. So Sabrina's method to argue against this guy was exactly the same method I would have used...oh, 5 years ago (wow, I am old): "I believe this because that's what the Bible says." And Rocky goes, "I don't believe in the Bible." And Sabrina goes, "Well, I believe this because that's what the Bible says, and you should believe this too, because that's what the Bible says." Heaven help us.

MY method was to pound him with questions that got straight to the seat of his beliefs and make him give me direct answers. It turned into this AWESOME philosophical conversation where I turned out having the upper hand. ROCK ON. :D I LOVED it. I can't even describe how much I loved it. It is a THRILL to have such an impartial discussion about things that are usually so personal. He was making his points and I was making mine. It was just like, "Right back at you, buddy!! You dish it out, can you take it??" Heck yes. :D

The questions, or rather question, I hammered him with to get straight to the seat of his beliefs was the question of there being a universal right and wrong. He made statement after outrageous statement--i.e., "I think Jesus was a completely made up character," "Paul wasn't really a Pharisee, he was a heliophant, associated with the Ebionites," "I don't believe in ANY god," "All religions are completely invented," etc., etc., etc.--and while Sabrina made her emphatic statements of, "Because the Bible says so!", I demanded to know why on earth he believes in right and wrong. I asked him 5 million times and he always deflected the conversation--maybe jumped in and tried to convince Sabrina that he was right--until FINALLY he told me that his morals come from the influence of the society he lives in and of his family and friends. It was great, 'cause when he made his statement he ended it with an exasperated, "OKAY??" LOL. He didn't write it in all caps and with two question marks, but that was definitely the feeling I got.

So. That was all I wanted at that point. I just wanted him to admit that he believes the things he does because of what he's been taught, JUST like Sabrina and I believe what we believe because of the things we've been taught. That was all I wanted for the night, and I ended the convo soon after that. But I hope someday to get back to him and hit him with my next round of questions, getting closer and closer to my point, that there MUST be a universal right and wrong, or else why would we think of any concept of a right and wrong? And if there IS a universal right and wrong, there MUST be something that came up with the universal right and wrong. And after that we have to figure out if we agree with this universal right and wrong.

LOL. I was telling Mom yesterday that I'm weird, I'm backwards. Most people say, "THIS is what's right and wrong, because THIS is what's behind it." I say, "I want to know what's BEHIND right and wrong first, and then I'll decide whether I agree with it or not." I guess that's a philosopher's way of thinking--the whys first, and then we'll get to the whats.

Anyway. So that was a radical conversation and totally exhilarated me. I still haven't wound down from it, as I can tell by the fact that my brain was going 200 miles an hour in church today as I listened to the sermon, and is STILL going 200 miles an hour and not letting me sleep now, even though I am SO wiped out from camp.

I'm gonna go now. See if I can at least close my eyes for a bit.

-Stephanie

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